Photograph by Richard McCaffrey

Students were bedecked in "We love Ruth" T-shirts. An exultant Cornel West clamored to slap a high-five with Ruth J. Simmons, the 12th child born to sharecroppers in segregated Texas, as she was inaugurated in October as the 18th president of Brown University. Requests by local and national news organizations for an interview with the new president, the first black person to lead an Ivy League university, were stacked up by the dozen. It was quite a contrast, to put it mildly, from the bad vibes that periodically haunted campus in recent years, starting with the administration of E. Gordon Gee, whose unusually short 25-month tenure left a bitter taste with many, and climaxing with the polarization that erupted last spring after the Brown Daily Herald published an inflammatory ad, condemning reparations for slavery, by right-wing polemicist David Horowitz

The acclaim that greeted Sullivan's selection in November 2000 reflects both her remarkable personal journey and the collective longing for a leader to help move Brown past these recent difficulties. And the 56-year-old, who previously served for five years as the president of Smith College in Northampton, Massachusetts, has mostly won raves while setting her early course at the 227-year-old College Hill institution. That said, Simmons hasn't been entirely predictable, opposing an ongoing union organizing effort among graduate students, for example, while strongly underlining the importance of free speech on campus in her welcoming remarks to the Class of 2005.

Initially raised in a small East Texas town, Simmons moved with her family to Houston. With their enthusiastic support, she pursued her education, earning degrees at Dillard University in New Orleans and Harvard University, and her subsequent academic career took her, among other places, from the University of New Orleans to Spelman College and Princeton. And while Simmons attributes her rise to the value of education, she has nonetheless encountered prejudice, telling the New York Times of having faced surveillance while visiting Bloomingdale's, Saks Fifth Avenue, and Ferragamo in New York. It's no wonder Simmons told the Times that it's impossible to separate what she has become from who she is and what she has experienced.

Simmons, joined by Laura Freid, Brown's vice president for university relations, spoke with the Phoenix in her office at University Hall on November 2. The following is an edited version of our conversation.

Q: You've spoken of Brown as being at a crossroads. How would you describe the primary challenges facing the university and how do you plan on going about meeting them?
A: I think the crossroads of which I spoke pertains to higher education generally, not just to Brown, and that part of what higher education has to do is to sort out very carefully how it can serve the needs of the country and its communities. And that's a very difficult thing to do, because we have to some extent gone our own way and gotten far out ahead of, or separated from, the issues of concern to our communities.

That crossroads seems to me to suggest that our responsibility in the next few years is to figure out how to align those two interests somewhat more closely, so that higher education doesn't go the way of some institutions -- becoming irrelevant and overly elitist such that the public at large sees itself as not having a stake in higher education to the same extent that it should. We are here to serve the public interest.

We serve public interest best if we do that with a certain level of independence because those who are responsible for preserving and advancing knowledge have to have independence in order to do that well. It seems to me you can have independence, and at the same time be relevant and interested in what's going on around you. So part of what I hope that means for Brown is that we're going to have the kinds of conversations that lead us to strategically participate in what's going on around us.

I've just come from a meeting today of the various alliances and centers involved in education in Providence and the state, and we're asking ourselves, "What should we be in order to make a difference in our community." I'd like for those questions to go on more and more at Brown, in terms of how we can align our interests with those of the community that we're in. So that's part of what I was saying.

Q: How do you see Brown's responsibilities in terms of the larger communities of the East Side, Providence, Rhode Island, and the world?
A: It's very hard to figure that out. Part of what we were trying to do earlier today is really to think hard about that, but here's some early conclusions I would draw: First, Brown is a national university and it serves Rhode Island best if it preserves its place as a national and international university, there's no question about that. That means in terms of the scholars that we attract to Brown, in terms of the residents who come to Rhode Island to work at Brown, in terms of the students and every other dimension, we're going to attract them internationally and nationally. I'm especially proud of the fact that Brown reserves a certain number of places for Rhode Island residents. I don't know any other institution like Brown that does it as overtly as Brown does. That's a very good thing. So we will remain a national university and interact on a national level as a great research university has to do.

But locally it seems to me that Brown has to behave somewhat differently. It has to come down off the hill and be a partner with interests of the leadership of our schools and the public leaders in the state, to try to help as much as possible to strengthen the long-term prospects for economic viability and cultural viability and so on in the region. You've got to do both.

But one of the things that we find hard to do is to be a partner, rather than that sort of institution on the hill. And what I'm suggesting is that we spend much more time following than we currently do. We are naturally disposed to lead, but there are many ways in which we can be followers. On some of the local questions, we ought to be followers -- we ought to be providing input. And we ought to be following others' lead instead of trying to lead ourselves. That's one of the things we were talking about today -- how can we involve ourselves with the other colleges and universities in Rhode Island, including community colleges, and be a partner with them to help address some of the issues in the schools of Rhode Island under the leadership of the commissioner, the superintendent, and so on.

Q: You're known as a lover of literature. If you were stuck on a desert island, what five books would you want to have along?
A: [Bemused laughter] Oh no, a tried-and-true question. Gee, I mean, I don't know. I have my favorites, and it changes from time to time, but I always say that Song of Solomon [by Toni Morrison] would be one of them. Recently, I've been rereading Montaigne's essays. I would say, maybe, that would be a good book to have on an island, to be able to read and reread repeatedly. I've spent some time in my life studying Proust, and Proust is always nearby for me. It's the kind of work that you can read and reread and so on because it's so rich, and so I would probably include that.

And then, I think I'd have to have poetry with me, but then I have a hard time trying to figure out what to select, but probably an anthology that includes poets from all centuries and across lots of different cultures, rather than just one. I studied Aime Cesaire. He's a poet, a Caribbean poet, from Martinique, for whom I have an affinity. So I might have an anthology of poetry, more modern, but probably starting in the 19th-century, but probably I would have a collection of Aime Cesaire's poetry as well. It would be a mixture of Afro-American works, French and Francophone literature.

You notice that's there's nothing really contemporary in there. In part, the reason for that is that I don't read very readily some of the more contemporary things with the intent to do that repeatedly, but on occasion I can pick up a novel or a history that's a contemporary work, but that's not where my heart is. My heart is really more on the things that I've studied for years and that I come back to periodically to understand better. And there are things that one reads from French literature that you can read every year and learn something new from those works, so that's what I would do.

Q: In many ways, you exemplify the best of the American dream, in terms of your life story and your accomplishments and achievements. At the same time, you've felt the effect of racism and prejudice -- you've described being racially profiled during the most recent part of your life. What strategies do you think would be most effective in reducing the amount of racism and prejudice in America?
A: Education. The simple answer certainly is that. Racism is really the result of ignorance and I believe that none of us inherently good or bad. Many of us have the opportunity to be exposed to different things, and to understand better the context of our lives and living in this world. And so, in a sense, when we are given the opportunity to be exposed to different perspectives, we have an opportunity to learn to reduce bigotry, and stereotyping, and discriminatory treatment, and so on. I like to believe that people, their natural impulse is to be fair, and if there are ways to show how inequities lead to unjust and untenable conditions in the world, the normal person will be inclined to work against preserving racism and bigotry.

There are two parts to this, you know. One is that all of us are victimized in some way, meaning that if we use our experience in our area to help us understand how others experience life, we can actually do a pretty good job of it. And by that I mean a person who has grown up poor without advantages and who has been ridiculed because of the clothes that they wear, the way that they talk, and the social skills that they have, should be able to readily understand how certain immigrant groups feel when they're ridiculed because of the accent that they have, because of the culture that they bring with them, and because of the way that they dress and so on. But we don't learn readily to transfer those things from one situation to the next, and it seems that education can help us to learn to transfer our experiences from one environment to the next, so that we understand what others are experiencing.

It has to be an overt process rather than one that we stumble onto. And I think education can help organize the way that we carry that out from the time that we are very small children . . . Now when I start talking about this, often people think I'm that talking solely about multicultural education. That's a small part of it, actually, but it is a part of it. And I think that today, whether in the elementary schools or all the way through college, we have to work to eliminate ignorance about other people. That means we have to incorporate in our curriculum the kinds of experiences of other countries and other cultures that allows us understand that we are one of many, and allows us to understand that while we value what we are and who we are, that what we are and who we are is not necessarily superior to everything else in the world.

If we understand that fundamentally, we are more open to learning from all other cultures and validating the things about those cultures that are good to validate, and we will also learn to be more critical of our own culture. That's part of what education does for us. It teaches us to assess ourselves, our experiences, and our backgrounds, and not simply to receive culture and to receive what is given us uncritically.

I look upon education as helping to eradicate some of the ignorance that generates the hatred in world, and there are people out there who hate us as Americans because they have a stereotype of Americans. We don't like that very much. So what we're asking, really, is for all Americans to take a lesson from how unfair and unjust that is and incorporate in our lives all the measures that prevent us from becoming the same limited, bigoted people that despise us basically. So it's the same thing.

Q: Brown has somewhat of a reputation as a bastion of political correctness, at least among some people. You've spoken vigorously about the importance of free speech on campus. What else do you plan to do to effectuate a readily acceptable atmosphere for free speech on campus?
A: Well, one of the things that I want to do -- I want myself to be provocative in articulating different perspectives on behalf of people who feel silent. That's one of the things we try to do in leadership, to lay out for our communities all the different ways of thinking, not in the sense to advocate on behalf of those points of view, but to make sure that by speaking them people feel comfortable entering the realm of public discourse. And so, part of the reason for talking about free speech was to enable people who wanted to talk about free speech and to make sure they understood that the public realm was their realm, too, not just that of those of us who happen to agree with each other about certain areas of politics and ethics and so on.

In addition to that it seems we have an obligation to ensure there are many different perspectives on the campus. Now, "Tilly" Tilghman, who's president of Princeton, feels Princeton does not have enough students with green hair. It's a button-down place, she thinks, which just doesn't very readily feel welcoming to a person who's a little different, and her example of needing more students with green hair is precisely the same thing that you're talking about. And that is, the university is a place that ought to be ensuring all the time that there are many different perspectives on the campus, because you cannot educate and you cannot be educated if you don't have that.

So that's what we try overtly to preserve in a university, that diversity of perspective and diversity of background and, of course, in admission. We work very hard to make sure that our students come from all over the United States, and all over the world in fact. Now, we love Rhode Island and we could probably fill the class with Rhode Islanders, but we think we give our students a better education if we have students who come from Wyoming. And so, we look for people from Wyoming, and Alaska, and Hawaii, and Texas, and so on. That's just what we do. I think we're trying to do that in lots of different ways, by looking for people from variant geographical backgrounds, looking for people who express on their applications different perspectives.

The perspective that people have -- that there is some kind of uniform way of thinking at Brown -- is dead wrong, I have to say, because when I enter discussions at Brown, I find points of view all over the map. So I think we want to continue to look for that difference of perspective, and I think that as a leader what I try to do is, again, to be provocative and constantly bringing to the center unfavorable views -- presumably unfavorable views -- as a way of jarring people into thinking about things that they don't want to think about, as a way of challenging people to look at every side.

Q: What do you think would be the most effective response to the crisis facing the United States in the aftermath of September 11?
A: One of the things that I know, and I hope that all Americans know this, is that in this country, the average citizen has about one-millionth of the information that those who represent us in the highest councils have about what's actually going on. And so, we can certainly have our opinions about what would be the best course, but we should not pretend that we know everything and that we can even have an informed judgment as they about what is going on, and what we should do to preserve the safety and security of the country.

Now, having said that, if you ask me what the best course is in resolving conflict, I think everyone would say the same thing. Under ideal circumstances, you try to bring people to the negotiating table and you try to reason with them, to reach a point of common perspective. Following a hostile act in which lives have been lost, it's very hard to do that, and at this juncture, because of the unwarranted attack against Americans, it would be hard to believe that we have a good chance at bringing people to the table given what has occurred.

I like the fact myself, in the debate about the right course of action, there will be a diversity of viewpoints, and I know that in Washington, in debating the course, that's appropriate for us . . . I tend to think that our job in universities is to debate the issues, to seek expertise in these areas, and to try to add to that debate to the extent that we can, as long as we have relevant expertise, and to leave in the hands of those who have the full array of information the responsibility of judging the best course for us. What else could we expect of people who represent us?

Q: It has been almost 20 years since A Nation at Risk documented the failings of public education in America. Certainly, there are many individuals and families that place great value on education in this country, but it seems as if we as a culture really do not. How do you see the outlook for public education in this country, particularly the troubled, larger school systems in cities such as Providence?
A: Well, I would say we do place a great value on education. But I think what has happened, certainly since World War II or maybe I should say more since the '60s, is that we've come to understand the great marketability of education, and the great commercial and economic use of education, and what has happened, instead of appreciating the profound impact that education has on the human psyche, and on the human intellect, and on the human well being -- instead of just appreciating education for itself -- we've come to appreciate education for what it puts in our purse.

Now, as a consequence of that a number of very unfortunate things have happened. First of all, we've somehow decided that there are some schools that are good and some schools that are bad. There are some teachers who are good and some teachers who are bad. There are some universities that are elite and some that are OK. If there's one thing that's happened in education, vis-a-vis the issue of quality, we've driven a wedge between that which we value in education and that which we do not value. There was a time in this country where that didn't exist.

Now, what do we do now? Now, that we've decided that there are certain kinds of education that are privileged and worthwhile and so on -- and certain kinds that are just not very good -- what do we do now?

One of the things that we've been talking about is a way of focusing on the expertise of the teacher and bringing support to the teacher, so that everyone who's in education knows. However much we talk about education, we know that legislators can not just fix education. We know that governors can not do it. We know that businessmen can't do it. There's only one group of people who can really address education -- that's the teacher and the principal. It's really down to the parent, down at ground level. That's where it happens. The support that has to be brought to bear in the classroom and in the school -- that's the question we're trying to answer.

At one time we didn't need to ask that question, because we didn't have fancy things. There was a one-room schoolhouse on the plains or in the rural area of a state, and that one-room schoolhouse was responsible for bringing all of those children along to productive lives, and it happened, in spite of the fact that there were many different grades in the same room. You had students all the way from one through grade 12, with one teacher teaching them all.

Today, we have highly specialized education, so that you have students of like ability grouped together, and then you have students [who are] supposed to be taught to their grade level and development, and so you have all kinds of expertise and resources and technologies, and now, we have complete dissatisfaction with our schools. What does that say to you?

Well, I tell you what it says to me. It's that we've become distracted in this country about what education really is. We've come to believe it has something to do with all of the baubles associated with education, and the fundamentals we've left aside. Well, the fundamentals have to do with the relationship between a teacher and a learner, the climate that's established in the classroom, and the autonomy that the teacher has in being able to reach a student. That autonomy has been interrupted mightily by a set of standards and measures imported from some place else.

So imagine in the United States, in the extreme case, let's say that you've got a system of education. Why don't you go to another country, let's say Thailand. Why don't you import the standards and culture of Thailand to our schools here and then ask our teachers to teach it? That's what it's like having businesspeople sit in New York, designing programs . . . .

Q: What will your short-term focus be during, say, the next five years at Brown?
A: My short answer is that the top three goals are faculty, faculty, faulty. I am interested in strengthening all of our academic programs, and in offering more financial support to students, so that their academic experience is enhanced.

We can improve our academic programs in several ways. First, we are thinking about expanding the size of the faculty so that we can have smaller classes -- over time we have crept up somewhat in the ratio of faculty to students. We also want to offer more financial support to lower-income students, to make sure that all of our students have the same number of hours in the day to devote to their academics, Additionally, we are looking at increasing the number of teaching assistantships available to graduate students to further reduce class size.

At the core of what we do is the educational experience we offer to our students. Making Brown the best university it can be and luring the best minds here are my primary goals.

Ian Donnis can be reached at idonnis[a]phx.com.

Issue Date: November 30 - December 6, 2001